After8
9:30 Fri Jul 31
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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Also infidel if we had had PR we'd have had a conservative government still but one supported by ukip. Which I am pretty confident the left, especially the champagne socialists in London would have had a fit of the vapours over.
It seems they only like elections when they win and win big or when there's a coalition which does exactly what suits the Labour Party.
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Infidel
9:24 Fri Jul 31
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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Yes, the 2010 general election under FPTP produced a hung parliament and a coalition whilst north of the border the Scottish parliament election under PR delivered a majority SNP government.
So that's that argument out the window too.
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After8
8:49 Fri Jul 31
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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What I like about the pr argument is when labour were winning massive majorities under first past the post they all kept quiet.
In 2010 the conservatives received more votes than labour in 05.
The conservatives didn't get a majority. Labour did.
In 2010 the conservatives received the same votes as labour in 01.
The conservatives didn't get a majority. Labour got a landslide.
Now though when there's a conservative major government they're all stamping their feet and screaming its not fair.
The hilarious thing of course is that the argument is pr means coalitions and therefore a broader section of support from the voters supposedly.
But we just had a coalition which the lefties hated and bitched about for five years.
So all in all its a massive batch of hypocrisy.
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percyd
7:16 Fri Jul 31
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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Infidel 3:24 Thu Jul 30
Quite true. But equally so of any and every parliament. Your point is more an argument for a shorter electoral cycle than an electoral system. One could even argue that with 'partners' as part of a government the principal party might well stick to their manifesto/behave generally better by being kept in check to some degree. A comparison with the last parliamentary coalition and the first year of the current parliament will be interesting.
And let's give the voters a teeny weeny bit of credit: people generally understand how the system works, the chronology etc. Maybe if they change their minds it's because they're reminded of what a bunch of lying shits most politicans seem to be?
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Infidel
3:24 Thu Jul 30
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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percyd
You have also not considered that whilst a PR system will give you a Parliament that represents more accurately the views of the voters on election day, they have an annoying habit of changing their minds.
Thus within a year of the election the parliament no longer reflects their wishes, which rather destroys your argument.
In fact towards the end of a five year Parliament elected by PR you could safely say that it is even less reflective of the electorate's wishes than a freshly elected FPTP Parliament.
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Infidel
3:16 Thu Jul 30
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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Thanks Surface.
I suspect Jeremy and Piers were right at home then.
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percyd
2:45 Thu Jul 30
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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Dapablo 2:36 Thu Jul 30
What you say is fair enough, though in reality - here at least - what develops is a more consensus based form of government. King makers indeed at times, but generally not out of proportion because minor parties are quite well aware of their status and the political risks of getting above themselves. This fear or concern about PR is frequently expressed by FPTP advocates but rarely materialises down under. And let's not forget that PR does not exclude single party government - we have it now as the National Party won 51% of the determining Party vote at the last GE: they could govern alone but choose to work with some minor parties still.
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SurfaceAgentX2Zero
2:41 Thu Jul 30
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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Infidel 2:26 Thu Jul 30
He went to Adams Grammar School, a private boarding school.
Not the same sort of thing as Ilford County High, at all.
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Dapablo
2:36 Thu Jul 30
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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PR is merely yet another form of democracy, the composition of the parliament may contain a fairer distribution of members that matches the electorate but whilst we still require a "government" of majority the smaller parties will have power in their hands (king makers) which will be once again be disproportionate to the composition of the electorate.
True democracy can only come about by one person one vote on every issue, trouble with that is most people don't know their arse from their elbow and wouldn't know what to vote anyway.
Bring back the king I say.
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,
2:32 Thu Jul 30
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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Corbin, privately educated but no uni, Cooper and Burnham state school educated then Oxbridge qualified.
Pity Alan Johnson is too old because he'd walk a leadership contest.
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percyd
2:26 Thu Jul 30
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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Infidel 1:46 Thu Jul 30
I keep missing the point! That's rich.
However, nice to see you finally agree:
"PR does generally result in a Parliament that more closely reflects the balance of of the electorate's wishes."
That's democracy sunshine, for better or worse.
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Infidel
2:26 Thu Jul 30
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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He went to grammar school didn't he?
However I think your basic point is right. There weren't many families round my way who named their two sons Jeremy and Piers.
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SurfaceAgentX2Zero
2:20 Thu Jul 30
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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Yes, but more importantly, does the privately-educated boarding-schoolboy Jeremy Corbyn think that wearing his flat cap at a rakish angle makes him look just a little bit like Lenin or Che Guevara and thus a bona fide working-class hero?
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Infidel
1:46 Thu Jul 30
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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percyd
You keep missing the point.
PR does generally result in a Parliament that more closely reflects the balance of of the electorate's wishes.
Nobody is disputing that, so repeating it ad nauseam just shows you haven't understood the argument.
The argument is about whether the sacrifices we have to make to achieve this better balance are worth it or not.
It's quite legitimate for you to argue that the sacrifices are worth it, but it's not remotely legitimate for you to pretend that there aren't any. That's the argument of a child.
With PR we would lose a lot of the beneficial features of our democracy that we currently enjoy. I personally don't think the trade off is worth it and neither does the majority of the UK population.
So why don't you stop trotting out the tired statistics of how many seats Party X got it for it's X% of the vote - which believe me is getting tiresome - and make a proper argument about the costs and benefits of PR.
I suspect because you can't.
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percyd
11:21 Thu Jul 30
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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Hammer and Pickle 11:10 Thu Jul 30
That's a very Canuteian argument, which I won't pursue as my point - again - is about the relative democracy of the two systems. And THAT PR is more democratice is inarguable, because democracy cannot be willy-nilly redefined to suit a particular argument.
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1964
11:20 Thu Jul 30
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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I see Diane Abbot has jumped on the Corbyn bandwagon hoping some of his popularity will rub off on her Mayoral candidacy.
All jerking themselves off on Twatter because they were clapped by a few hundred lefties in a Bloomsbury church. YUK!
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Prometheus50
11:18 Thu Jul 30
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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H&P
I'm sure you do not need reminding
"the ECB is rolling out QE by purchasing T-bonds issued by eurozone members on the secondary market - this is providing the much required liquidity"
the author of these words is clearly one who believes that the Eurozone economy can only grow being spoon fed cheap credit
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Hammer and Pickle
11:13 Thu Jul 30
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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I see in your model an economy cannot grow unless it is spoon fed by cheap credit, Promprom. So I fear we have what is known as a paradigm difference and this whole discussion is pointless.
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Hammer and Pickle
11:10 Thu Jul 30
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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That's precisely my point, percyd - just because a lot of people happen to make the same mistake, and believe you me PR is a mistake - it doesn't make it anything other than a mistake made by a lot of people.
Democracy needs to be about particular programmes for specific people in specific times and places because it is an instrument of power wielded by people who manage capital, and FPTP simply does that better than PR. It doesn't do it perfectly though, only better.
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Prometheus50
11:03 Thu Jul 30
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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H&P
So back to my original point that you dismissed out of hand (now proven through ignorance)
If the ECB are not buying Greek paper and therefore not providing liquidity, how does the Greek financial system function and the economy grow in the absence of fiscal transfers that the Germans refuse to consider,. given that the EU austerity terms will require them to generate a notional surplus?
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Hammer and Pickle
11:02 Thu Jul 30
Re: Has the labour party died ?
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What's your point Zero, you snivelling wreck of a man?
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